When Jen over at the Blag Hag began to agitate for a new ‘wave’ of atheism, I’ll admit that I was happy about it; in its current configuration, the atheist movement seemed to me to be something of a game for middle class white men. The idea of formally aligning myself with a ‘community’ that whipped itself up into a frenzy over the mere suggestion that conferences might think about adopting anti-harassment policies was not, frankly, an idea worth holding. I have attended atheist conferences – I’ve spoken at atheist conferences – but I nevertheless maintained a distance from it. It was not until a conference this spring, and a chance conversation with Natalie Reed, that I was convinced to begin thinking of myself as a member of the atheist community. What irony; I was convinced to join a movement I was cautious of joining due to concerns about the groups’ exclusionary attitudes by a person who would later become a target of said group’s exclusionary attitudes. At any rate, my newfound sense of belonging quickly soured when I began to look even more critically at the beliefs and practices that seemed to be a part of the “atheist community’s” makeup.
I heard conference organizers make disgusting comments about underage school-girls – children made targets because they had the gall to be born to Catholic parents who enrolled them in Catholic school (and apparently for the crime of being born female). I saw atheists of all stripes endorse policies and politics ranging from eugenics and proto-fascism to social Darwinism and the mandatory “re-education” of theists. I heard from atheist anti-choice advocates whose opinions on abortion were drawn directly from the arguments of the Christian Right; apparently the atheists in question just couldn’t see it (Pro-tip: If your argument against abortion begins with any premise that is rooted in a belief in the sanctity of life, you’re using a religious-based argument. Deal with it.). I saw the same kinds of racist micro-aggressions, sexist remarks, and lazy stereotypes in atheist meet-ups that I saw elsewhere in society. The atheist communities I saw were often no more reasoned or rational than any other randomly selected segment of society; they simply believed in one less god. Well, except for the atheists who chose to believe in Universal Oneness, Ascendant Masters, or Ancient Alien benefactors anyways; they just gave God a different name and made him wear a mask.
In short; there was little in the atheist movement that I found to be better or more rational than what I found in the skeptical movement to which I already belonged. At least skepticism has the benefit of being a process – a way of looking at the world; atheism simply required a lack of belief in deities.
I often heard the retort that in fact, atheism (or positive atheism, or New Atheism) endorsed and embraced far more than the dictionary definition of atheism, that to be an atheist meant that a person also valued their critical thinking skills and employed them whenever possible. But when I found that actually being practiced, it was done so under the name of skepticism, not atheism. I never heard anyone say ‘well, the atheist position on homeopathy is that it operates via a horrible misunderstanding of the placebo effect’, or ‘well, as an atheist, I understand that Ouija boards are toys that make use of the ideomotor effect’. Because atheism – at least the ‘dictionary’ understanding of atheism – has nothing to say about such things; those beliefs are the result of skepticism, scientific literacy, and critical thinking. Whenever I encountered an atheist who made these sorts of claims, I was almost always encountering an atheist who also thought of themselves as a skeptic.
Two different hats. Or maybe only two mostly different hats that happened to share a side.
But no matter where I looked in the atheist community – from conferences to meet-ups to blogs – wherever I found discussions on topics of social justice taking place, I almost always found them taking place on the margins. The atheist movement had all the time in the world for offering blistering denunciations of religion in all its forms; it had time to blast faith healers and psychics and astrologers and alt-meddlers, but the instant that any topic about inequality or racism or *gasp* feminism was broached, the majority of the community was suddenly struck deaf and dumb. We couldn’t talk about those topics; they weren’t really problems, or they weren’t something that could be addressed scientifically. For whatever reason, they were verboten in atheist communities (and to a disturbingly large degree in skeptical ones as well); they were the Voldemort to atheism’s wizarding society, which I suppose made atheist and skeptical social justice advocates the ‘death-eaters’. Those within the movement who wanted to speak out about injustice and inequality were cast as the bad guys.
Because that’s the narrative; atheism and skepticism are united communities, while feminists or social justice advocates are dangerous radicals – subversive persons – to borrow some scientology nomenclature. Atheists want to tear down the bastions of faith while the subversives are intent on tearing the movement apart from within. Those of us who seek to change and grow our respective movements are branded not only as malcontents, but as existential threats to the community. And so they must be purged.
And purged they have been. For daring to speak up and suggest a new wave of atheist growth, Jen – the Blag Hag – has been driven from the community, maybe for good. For having the temerity to stand up for trans* issues, and for calling out other atheists and skeptics for failing to apply their rigorous standards of critical thought to their own beliefs, Natalie Reed has been subjected to vile and potentially dangerous harassment and abuse. For providing a platform for socially-minded atheist and skeptical bloggers, the FreeThought Blogs have been branded a dangerous hivemind of socialists, feminists, and ‘leftists’ (cause that’s a bad thing, apparently). It’s not enough that the atheist movement has declared war on faith; they must now declare war on each other as well. And for what: for suggesting that perhaps the movement could bend its vaunted critical thinking skills to the problems facing the under-represented in society? For suggesting that perhaps the movement might want pause for a moment and practice some much-needed introspection? How dare we?
What does it say of a movement that, when faced by internal critique and challenge responds with threats of death or rape? How should we think of this movement when it erupts in self-righteous fury over codes of conduct designed to enforce minimum standards of human decency? Two years ago, a skeptic asked that she be allowed to go from a hotel bar to her room without harassment; her simple suggestion is still talked about – regurgitated like so much stale vomit and chewed on over and over by people who have decided that she is now someone worthy of scorn and derision, apparently forever.
I’ve not been subject to these forms of abuse; in the atheist and skeptical communities I’m nobody. I run a blog that a few people like enough to follow; I sometimes get asked to sit on panels or give talks about racism. But I see the need for movements like Atheism+. I believe firmly that skepticism must be used in the service of social justice. And when I see the sorts of abuse being heaped on people who express their desire to see the movements they are a part of grow to include progressive policies, I wonder if the atheist movement is even worth saving? Why should I expend my energy to save a movement where so many react to social progressivism with hatred and threats?
That is why I hope that Atheism+ succeeds. I will do what little I can to promote it, and I will continue to speak out about social justice in skepticism and atheism. Because I happen to think that the community needs to grow. We need to expand beyond critiquing religion; if we’re really serious about opposing the harm that religion does to society, then we are explicitly stating that we view society as something important and in need of protection. Every part of society; not just the parts that look, sound, or think like us.




Reblogged this on Nina's Garden and commented:
I think we all need to shift to
apatheism – apathy to theism to be crystal clear
just don’t care what other people are and keep yours to yourself
it’s what most of Canadians do every day
Atheism, especially in North America and with “New Atheism” is more of a religion than a non-believe, if you want, it’s an Antitheism more than anything else.
Why am I saying this? Because it took me a good decade to move from agnostic to atheist and it was an intellectual process, it required maturing and experience in the world, not clinging to a term that adopted because I didn’t want to be like “them”.
Contrary to what many atheists like to say you are NOT born an atheist. You are born “blank” but that’s not the same. An atheist (I avoid using “real” here) is not someone who is blank, but someone who has evaluated themselves, the evidence around them and society and then declared (to himself or to others) that there is no God.
So what happened over the last decade or so? 9/11 I would say. It saw a rise in religious believes in the US. The “We’re A Christian Nation” etc. vs. “those damn muslims”. This is why people like Dawkins etc. suddenly became so popular, fueled in no small part by the Internet that allowed people to meet ‘likeminded’ ones. Take a look at /r/atheism to get an idea on how uncritical many seem to be taking to it. It’s like a self-help group for people who are stuck in a community they feel oppressed by, identified by the belief in a deity. So trying to get away from it is natural.
Case in point is the girl Watson pointed out last year in her “I hate reddit” post. I got curious if she was still posting there or not. Lo-and-behold she still is, but she also has become a Christian. It’s interesting to read her reasons why when she was asked. It simply comes down to this: She was seeking a community. The church she found gives her that (they are quite clever about that). And this is something most modern or new atheists just don’t get. People are religious not because they necessarily belief in a creator, but because the community around it gives them a feeling of belonging. That the $holy_book provides them with simple rules and explanation is for many a plus.
So this gets me to A+, Elevatorgate etc. The simple reality is that Watson et. al. are not atheists, they aren’t even skeptics. They are basically people who tried to find a place they think they could fit in that would piss their parents off. In the 70s you listened to punk music, in the 80s you wore ugly clothing and a boombox, in the 90s you played with computers and in the 2000s you call yourself an atheist / skeptic.
A+ isn’t a “new wave” of atheism. A+ is a bunch of kids who realize that they’ve now become mainstream and that just isn’t good enough, so they want their own special club.
Mind you, I have zero use for “New Atheism” either.
Besides, if you are not part of the community (I am surely not) and you watch this from the sidelines then the whole thing is utterly amusing anyway. Why? Because there is Dogma on both sides, A+ and A-, many on both sides are utterly blinded by their own ideology. What pisses me off more about A+ though is the entire “holier than thou” attitude. Even people who ask serious questions / voice serious criticism are treated as hostile.
I like that you seem to have nominated yourself to the position of Judge over what atheism is and is not, and further, that you’ve decided that you can judge who is and is not atheist, based on what you seem to think is your own unique position. You’re not the first atheist to come by their lack of belief after some long and serious thought.
Dogma on both sides, you say? Well, that’s a testable claim, isn’t it? Please provide me with examples of what you’re talking about, and then please tell me why these examples constitute dogma. Show me an example of a practice or belief in atheist communities that, if eliminated, would constitute an existential challenge to the ‘atheist paradigm’.
Lastly, you are seriously going to equate atheism+ with a ‘cool kids club’? Really? So in your mind, the request that the atheist/secularist/skeptic movements be more inclusive and welcoming to vulnerable and minority groups is really just some form of atheist hipsterism? That those who are aligning themselves with atheism+ are only doing so because they are acting out of an adolescent need to rebel? Are you fucking serious? If that’s what you’re getting from your peanut-gallery observations, then may I suggest that you find a seat closer to the sideline; you’re apparently incapable of noticing anything from where you’re positioned.
I never claimed that I am unique in my experience. I made an observation about the “movement” and the majority of the people inhabiting it these days. I like that you seem to take offense at that observation, seems I hit a nerve.
Well, let’s start with A+, read the announcement of the “initiative’, read Carrier’s screed for a start. Heck, if you have a lot of time to waste go into their forum and read how people argue there.
As for the “New Atheists”, read Dawkins. For him it comes down to that if you do not believe you clearly aren’t very smart. May I remind you of the stupidity that was the term “Brights”?
And yes, I do say that A+ is a “cool kids club”, again, read the writings of the “founders” of this “new wave of atheism”. If their language doesn’t reek of a sense of superiority and exclusivity then what does it sound like to you?
As for them being welcome about “vulnerable” and “minorities”? Please, give me examples where some of the “old white men” told “vulnerable” (what does that even mean in the context of not believing) and “minorities” to go and stuff it and that they should stay the hell away?
Oh, and btw, using expletives makes you come of as someone angry, not someone who is actually able to convey their thoughts in a logical manner. But keep belittling me you’re just proving my point. I challenged your Dogma, so now I have to be taken down.
Take your next shot.
You didn’t ‘hit a nerve’; you just made me cringe that there are still people around who make those sorts of piss-poor arguments.
Demands for inclusiveness are, to your mind, proof of exclusivity? Do you live on Bizarro Earth? Are you sure that you just don’t like the ‘cool kids club’ because your bullshit isn’t tolerated there?
Ah, I see. So a person is only being exclusionary if they are literally shoving minorities out the door? Know how I know that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about? Did you even bother to read my post? Did you just see the link I put in about ‘micro-aggression’ and decide not to click it? Your laziness and ignorance of the subject matter do not require me to spend any more time educating you. Also, we’re not talking about ‘vulnerable’ groups in the context of not-believing; we’re talking about ‘vulnerable’ groups in the context of building a community around shared interests. I don’t know what you were talking about, but it was nonsense.
Really? A ‘tone’ complaint? Well, if it’s all you’ve got…
Also – and here’s the important part – you didn’t actually challenge anything! You didn’t provide a single example of dogma – not one! I mean, you’d think that it should have been an easy task for you – after all, you seem to see dogma everywhere – and yet you failed to provide even a singular case. Could it be that you don’t actually know what the word ‘dogma’ means?
I don’t need to take any ‘next shot’, since you haven’t even been able to respond to my first one.
Piss poor argument? Where is your proof that people are being excluded from “not believing”? That you seem to think that there IS such a thing as an approval process to not-believing again proves my point yet again that the current crop of “activists” completely fails to understand what atheism actually denotes: That is a philosophical position, not an emotional one.
Again: Who tells you that you cannot believe? Dawkins? The “old white males”? Who exactly gets to decide if your non-believe passes mustard and then bestows the mark of atheism on you?
Again, you’re proving my point. You chose to be an “atheist” because it gives you a “group feel” and because you want to “belong”, not because you have come to the conclusion that not to believe is who you are.
“So a person is only being exclusionary if they are literally shoving minorities out the door?”
Pardon me? You make the argument that people are being excluded. HOW are they excluded? YOU made that claim so bring some proof where people were being told that they were not allowed not to not believe in a deity and while you’re at it the reason for as to why.
“Your laziness and ignorance of the subject matter do not require me to spend any more time educating you.”
Micro Aggression, eh? Yeah, I guess you may want to look in the mirror. You’re just the perfect example on what is going on wrong with the “movement” these days. Someone doesn’t sign your praise or utterly agrees with you and clearly they must be excluded. Oops. I am sure I am just misreading your tone here.
“Also, we’re not talking about ‘vulnerable’ groups in the context of not-believing; we’re talking about ‘vulnerable’ groups in the context of building a community around shared interests.”
And again. Not believing is not a community building exercise, it is a philosophical standpoint. You can build a community around commonalities but a philosophical stance does not create a community. As others have pointed out, anybody can call themselves atheists and that’s it. If you want to share other things together feel free to do so but then those activities are what defines you, not your lack of a belief in a deity. That’s something that many “New Atheists” and especially the A+ crowd don’t seem to be able to process. I am not calling myself an atheist because I want a label, I call myself an atheist because when people ask me what I believe in I can tell them that I do not believe in any Gods. What other positions I hold have nothing to do with this at all.
“Really? A ‘tone’ complaint? Well, if it’s all you’ve got…”
More than you seem to bring to the discussion. I didn’t talk down on you, I didn’t belittle you, I was offering a perspective. Instead all you managed to do was, well, show micro aggression towards me. Guess it takes one to know one, eh?
“You didn’t provide a single example of dogma – not one! I mean, you’d think that it should have been an easy task for you – after all, you seem to see dogma everywhere – and yet you failed to provide even a singular case.”
Actually you’re the perfect example of Dogma. My mistake. I thought you were actually interested in having an adult discussion instead of reverting to the usual A+ trope of attacking the messenger and dismissing their points because they don’t agree with you.
Here, let me give you the definition of Dogma, maybe then the penny drops:
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it can not be changed or discarded without affecting the very system’s paradigm, or the ideology itself. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted regardless of evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities.
Now, enjoy your echo chamber. I am sure the Atheism support group will be by any minute now and tell you how right you were and how mean spirited I am by not agreeing with you.
Have a nice life.
Here, let me summarize your position for you, because seriously, who the fuck wants to wade through that mire of garbage and tortured logic: “I define atheism as ‘X’. This is the only definition that I will accept, and the only definition that anyone should use. If your definition of atheism is ‘Y’ (or even a slightly modified version of ‘X’), then you are not an atheist, according to me and my objective knowledge of the word. If you disagree with my definition of atheism, you are not an atheist. If you try to organize others around atheism, you are not an atheist, because atheism can only ever be about ‘not believing’. If you feel that atheism can mean more than that, or if you feel that a movement organized around atheism can or ought to include something other than ‘not believing’, then you are being dogmatic and merely wish to belong to a club, and are no longer atheists. I refuse to discuss anything in good faith with anyone who refuses to use the words ‘atheist’ and ‘atheism’ in the ways I deem to be acceptable.”
I’m glad you’re leaving. I don’t know how many more of your bullshit strawmen I can look at.
Also, I’m not mocking you for disagreeing with me; I’m mocking you because you’re being disingenuous and appear to be deliberately misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I say. Also, your tone makes you sound like a douchebag.
I visited the Atheism+ forums for a few days as an experiment. I stated my disagreement with feminist ideas, and politely but tenaciously defended my beliefs. I even made sure to concede points I thought they’d proven.
At first the discussion was mature and enjoyable. Then a few people appeared who ignored my arguments and instead insulted every single thing about me personally that they could. The moderators did not punish their behavior, but threatened me with a ban for behavior which I *hadn’t* engaged in, but they *had*. Eventually, the entire tone of the board changed. People who had been friendly and respectful before either vanished, or joined in with the others’ bullying. Every word I said was dissected to find the interpretation that cast the worst light possible. I was accused of all sorts of hidden agendas, and of course was called a misogynist woman hater many times. After five days in the forum, I felt so awful that I broke down crying while grocery shopping. It felt like they had gouged out my insides with an excavator. To be relentlessly hated for days on end is the worst feeling there is. But I kept at it, because I wanted to know just how far they would go. Eventually, I was banned for being “sexist” and “ableist”. I had said that we could solve most gender issues by loving and forgiving one another, and that physical limitations doesn’t make someone less of a person. But by then, anything I said became the opposite. Being banned was a relief. I can’t remember any other website that has made me feel worse. I can’t remember ever feeling such a tidal wave of directed hatred.
That sounds like a truly terrible experience. I don’t know what you expect me to do or say about it however; I wasn’t party to these events, I didn’t see them happen. I have no idea what the motivations of anyone involved were, nor does your recounting tell me anything about the ‘tone’ or nature of your own arguments and disagreements. From what little information you’ve imparted here, it sounds to me as though you went into those forums looking for an argument, got one, and after a time began to be treated by the forum denizens as though you were simply trolling them – you said yourself, you wanted to see ‘just how far they’d go’. I’m sorry that you felt hurt or ‘hated’ by people online; that’s no way for anyone to treat anyone else. I’d be interested in seeing the discussion for myself, if you have a link handy.
I will say this however; your assertion that we can solve most ‘gender issues’ by ‘loving and forgiving one another’ strikes me as a rather naive and simplistic sort of thing to say. So women who have faced a lifetime of objectionable treatment should what, love and forgive everyone who’s wronged them? How does that stop others from treating them poorly? If men who have grown up with the pressures to be hard, unemotional, distant, or aggressive and violent simply ‘forgive’ or ‘love’ all of them other men who police their gender, will that stop them from being called ‘faggots’ or ‘pussies’, if they choose to express their feelings?
What feminist ideas, specifically, did you state you had a problem with? I can certainly see how going into a predominantly feminist space and claiming that you disagree with feminism might not start any subsequent discussion off well.
Why would you continue your ‘experiment’ after being treated poorly? Also, what sorts of conclusions did your ‘experiment’ lead you to?